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There are some things that I never want to see in Kotor stories again. These are my personal pet peeves, and every time I see these happening in a story it makes me want to tear my hair out. This list doesn’t include my biggest pet peeve: the Revan!Sue, because I think that’s a subject too lengthy to include.
As usual, this is my opinion, so if you disagree with me that’s fine, in fact, let me know, because a good discussion is always entertaining, and hey, maybe I'm wrong.
The “everyone dogs on Carth conversation.”
The scenario is this: after the Leviathan everyone comes on board and Revan reveals who she is. Everyone backs her except for Carth just like they do in the game (so far so good). Then, and this is the part that kills me, Carth goes off and pouts and everyone hates him for not instantly deciding to stand with Revan and for voicing his completely understandable feelings about her. Everyone glares at him and thinks he’s being all mean, until one member of the crew, (sometimes Jolee/sometimes Canderous), sits down and shows Carth the error of his ways.
I’m pretty sure I’ve seen this exact scenario in at least ten and maybe as many as twenty stories, and it drives me crazy every single time. Here’s why:
Carth is someone who has been traveling with this group of people for presumably months. The crew of the Ebon Hawk are his comrades and friends. You’d think that while they stand by Revan, they’d understand Carth’s reservations and issues with the woman who 1) turned traitor on the Republic and 2) is indirectly responsible for the death of his wife, his planet and for the corruption of his son. But instead, all he gets are lectures from people about “how can you treat her like this” and “she’s different now.” It’s like the characters aboard the Ebon Hawk expect instant forgiveness and acceptance from this man, instead of giving him the respect that he deserves, and personally, I think they’d give Carth more credit than that.
Beyond that, this is REVAN. S/he is inherently dangerous, and in a lot of ways Carth is only bringing up some completely legitimate concerns about the safety of the crew and the Republic.
For once, I’d like to read a story (and this is![[livejournal.com profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/external/lj-userinfo.gif)
kosiah’s idea) where the crew freaks out when they find out she’s Revan and chains her up in the cargo bay, demanding an explanation from Jolee as to why the hell he didn’t mention anything about this before. Or maybe a story where Jolee or Canderous sit down for that talk with Carth about how Revan needs him and he should move past his issues, and Carth punches them right in the face and tells them to mind their own damn business.
The “Carth & Canderous emote to one another like 14 year old girls” conversation.
A lot of times this conversation happens in the context of the “everyone dogs on Carth” conversation, although it can happen in other contexts, but one thing remains constant: the two of them are always talking about a fem!Revan and Carth’s relationship problems (how lucky Carth is for having her or how stupid Carth is for not seeing how awesome she is).
Here is the thing. Carth is a 38 year old war veteran. Canderous is in his early to mid 50’s. They have completely opposite outlooks on life and fought on two different sides of a vicious war. While I’ll buy that the two of them might grow into a grudging respect for one another, I simply cannot fathom these two men sitting down and discussing their relationship issues with one another. Canderous simply wouldn’t care about Carth and Revan’s problems. Carth wouldn’t emote like a 14 year old girl to anyone – especially Canderous. If Carth ever tried it, Canderous would mock Carth and probably give the pilot an ass beating he’d never forget.
Fluffy!Canderous
I haven’t seen this in a while, but boy when I do see it, it drives me up the wall. Okay, everyone, say it with me: Canderous is not a nice man. He admits that he has murdered women, children and innocents while working for Davik. Yes, he has a code of honor, but it’s a code of honor that says it’s okay to burn and ravage entire planets – all for the glory of battle. And while at the end of the game, he gets to be a bit introspective, that doesn’t mean that he does a 180 and completely changes his outlook on life to where he’s all of the sudden a gruff yet snuggly guy, who suddenly realizes that he’s in love with Bastila.
Yes, athenaprime did this in her story. Yes, Tim Radley is going there. Yes, Winterfox even has him in a relationship with Revan. All three of these authors took the time to lay painstaking characterization and are very, very careful not to turn Canderous into something that he isn’t… and really these stories are the exception to what is out there.
Bitchy/Codependent Bastila
I admit I fell into the bitchy Bastila trap. I totally hated her until about halfway through my first fic (and I think that it probably shows). Female gamers playing a fem!Revan really get shortchanged, because Bastila doesn’t really do a hell of a lot except lecture you. But that’s no excuse to turn her into a raving bitch/shrew who’s only goal in life is to come in between Carth and Revan’s one tru wuv.
Bastila was put into the worst possible situation by the Jedi Council. She’s babysitting the former scourge of the galaxy, whom she’s bonded to, all by herself, and in light of that her uptight and preachy attitude seems to be a bit more understandable. Hell if I were her, I’d be five times bitchier. I’m not saying that writers have to like her as a character, but it would be nice to see some stories where the author recognizes what a completely crappy situation Bastila is tossed into.
In some ways co-dependant Bastila is worse. This seems to be a trait in a lot of male!Revan fics, where Bastila is weepy, spineless and completely dependant on Revan to guide her through her wangst. I’m sorry, but as a female reader – this makes me see red. I understand that after the star forge, she’d be having a rough time, but come on… I’ve read some fics where all she does is wangst and worry and have big strong Revan help her cope. And then when Revan isn’t around… all she does is wangst and wonder when her one tru wuv will come back.
This is a woman who had the guts to take on Revan in combat when Revan was still evil. She also had the guts to keep it together while sheparding an amnesiatic former Dark Lord around the galaxy. She even has the guts to take on Malak, by herself, and sacrifice herself so that Revan and the crew can make a getaway. She’s not a weepy flower of a woman, and she’s not a spineless nitwit. She can exist without Revan supporting her all the damn time.
One tru wuv Atton stories
Same objections about fluffy!Canderous apply to Atton. Atton is not a nice man. In fact, he’s kind of crazy, and in the game he shows absolutely no signs that he is sorry for the fact that he used to torture and kill Jedi. He’s also a complete and utter horndog. So why the hell there are all these fluffy!Atton, one tru wuv stories out there? I’ll never understand this.
Puppy-Dur
I haven’t seen that many Bao-Dur fics, but sadly the one Bao-Dur centric story I have seen, treats Bao-Dur like a big golden retriever for the Exile. I mean, I know the guy respects the exile, but come on, he’s a grown man. I can see this becoming a trend, which is why this makes the list.
Revan confronting the council, and the council taking it like prison bitches
Okay, so your Revan is pissed at being mind wiped and decides to go and chew out the Jedi Council. Okay – I don’t agree that Revan is right in this instance, but hey, maybe you’re version of Revan does this. What drives me up the wall is when Revan chews the Council out the Council just sits there and takes it, letting Revan, get up on his/her high horse and yell about how unfair it was – and then suddenly, members of the council are shamed. Revan then stomps off completely assured of his or her own self-righteousness without so much as an objection from the Council.
Come on. Even if you the author thinks that the mind wipe and keeping Revan’s identity from her/him was wrong, that doesn’t mean that the Jedi Council thinks it was wrong. Would they really allow Revan, of all people, to stand in front of them bitching and moaning, and not say anything? Or would they point out that Revan created the crappy situation in the first place, which forced the Council into their plan of action?
Force healing that heals EVERYTHING.
Okay, I hate this. Where a character gets horribly wounded and in the next scene they are completely fine, because of the awesome power of force healing. I think the worst case of this that I’ve seen is where one character has gotten raped and tortured to the point where she loses her mind and the Jedi healers have a mind healing session which makes everything all better. That just smacks of the unicorn healing touch and it drives me nuts.
If the author is going to have the character get seriously injured, tortured or raped (or all three) then the author has the responsibility to deal with the physical and mental repercussions of the situation that they’ve created in their stories. Having them magically all healed in the next scene is a cop out.
Anyway… that’s my rant. Anyone else have some kotor pet peeves?
As usual, this is my opinion, so if you disagree with me that’s fine, in fact, let me know, because a good discussion is always entertaining, and hey, maybe I'm wrong.
The “everyone dogs on Carth conversation.”
The scenario is this: after the Leviathan everyone comes on board and Revan reveals who she is. Everyone backs her except for Carth just like they do in the game (so far so good). Then, and this is the part that kills me, Carth goes off and pouts and everyone hates him for not instantly deciding to stand with Revan and for voicing his completely understandable feelings about her. Everyone glares at him and thinks he’s being all mean, until one member of the crew, (sometimes Jolee/sometimes Canderous), sits down and shows Carth the error of his ways.
I’m pretty sure I’ve seen this exact scenario in at least ten and maybe as many as twenty stories, and it drives me crazy every single time. Here’s why:
Carth is someone who has been traveling with this group of people for presumably months. The crew of the Ebon Hawk are his comrades and friends. You’d think that while they stand by Revan, they’d understand Carth’s reservations and issues with the woman who 1) turned traitor on the Republic and 2) is indirectly responsible for the death of his wife, his planet and for the corruption of his son. But instead, all he gets are lectures from people about “how can you treat her like this” and “she’s different now.” It’s like the characters aboard the Ebon Hawk expect instant forgiveness and acceptance from this man, instead of giving him the respect that he deserves, and personally, I think they’d give Carth more credit than that.
Beyond that, this is REVAN. S/he is inherently dangerous, and in a lot of ways Carth is only bringing up some completely legitimate concerns about the safety of the crew and the Republic.
For once, I’d like to read a story (and this is
kosiah’s idea) where the crew freaks out when they find out she’s Revan and chains her up in the cargo bay, demanding an explanation from Jolee as to why the hell he didn’t mention anything about this before. Or maybe a story where Jolee or Canderous sit down for that talk with Carth about how Revan needs him and he should move past his issues, and Carth punches them right in the face and tells them to mind their own damn business. The “Carth & Canderous emote to one another like 14 year old girls” conversation.
A lot of times this conversation happens in the context of the “everyone dogs on Carth” conversation, although it can happen in other contexts, but one thing remains constant: the two of them are always talking about a fem!Revan and Carth’s relationship problems (how lucky Carth is for having her or how stupid Carth is for not seeing how awesome she is).
Here is the thing. Carth is a 38 year old war veteran. Canderous is in his early to mid 50’s. They have completely opposite outlooks on life and fought on two different sides of a vicious war. While I’ll buy that the two of them might grow into a grudging respect for one another, I simply cannot fathom these two men sitting down and discussing their relationship issues with one another. Canderous simply wouldn’t care about Carth and Revan’s problems. Carth wouldn’t emote like a 14 year old girl to anyone – especially Canderous. If Carth ever tried it, Canderous would mock Carth and probably give the pilot an ass beating he’d never forget.
Fluffy!Canderous
I haven’t seen this in a while, but boy when I do see it, it drives me up the wall. Okay, everyone, say it with me: Canderous is not a nice man. He admits that he has murdered women, children and innocents while working for Davik. Yes, he has a code of honor, but it’s a code of honor that says it’s okay to burn and ravage entire planets – all for the glory of battle. And while at the end of the game, he gets to be a bit introspective, that doesn’t mean that he does a 180 and completely changes his outlook on life to where he’s all of the sudden a gruff yet snuggly guy, who suddenly realizes that he’s in love with Bastila.
Yes, athenaprime did this in her story. Yes, Tim Radley is going there. Yes, Winterfox even has him in a relationship with Revan. All three of these authors took the time to lay painstaking characterization and are very, very careful not to turn Canderous into something that he isn’t… and really these stories are the exception to what is out there.
Bitchy/Codependent Bastila
I admit I fell into the bitchy Bastila trap. I totally hated her until about halfway through my first fic (and I think that it probably shows). Female gamers playing a fem!Revan really get shortchanged, because Bastila doesn’t really do a hell of a lot except lecture you. But that’s no excuse to turn her into a raving bitch/shrew who’s only goal in life is to come in between Carth and Revan’s one tru wuv.
Bastila was put into the worst possible situation by the Jedi Council. She’s babysitting the former scourge of the galaxy, whom she’s bonded to, all by herself, and in light of that her uptight and preachy attitude seems to be a bit more understandable. Hell if I were her, I’d be five times bitchier. I’m not saying that writers have to like her as a character, but it would be nice to see some stories where the author recognizes what a completely crappy situation Bastila is tossed into.
In some ways co-dependant Bastila is worse. This seems to be a trait in a lot of male!Revan fics, where Bastila is weepy, spineless and completely dependant on Revan to guide her through her wangst. I’m sorry, but as a female reader – this makes me see red. I understand that after the star forge, she’d be having a rough time, but come on… I’ve read some fics where all she does is wangst and worry and have big strong Revan help her cope. And then when Revan isn’t around… all she does is wangst and wonder when her one tru wuv will come back.
This is a woman who had the guts to take on Revan in combat when Revan was still evil. She also had the guts to keep it together while sheparding an amnesiatic former Dark Lord around the galaxy. She even has the guts to take on Malak, by herself, and sacrifice herself so that Revan and the crew can make a getaway. She’s not a weepy flower of a woman, and she’s not a spineless nitwit. She can exist without Revan supporting her all the damn time.
One tru wuv Atton stories
Same objections about fluffy!Canderous apply to Atton. Atton is not a nice man. In fact, he’s kind of crazy, and in the game he shows absolutely no signs that he is sorry for the fact that he used to torture and kill Jedi. He’s also a complete and utter horndog. So why the hell there are all these fluffy!Atton, one tru wuv stories out there? I’ll never understand this.
Puppy-Dur
I haven’t seen that many Bao-Dur fics, but sadly the one Bao-Dur centric story I have seen, treats Bao-Dur like a big golden retriever for the Exile. I mean, I know the guy respects the exile, but come on, he’s a grown man. I can see this becoming a trend, which is why this makes the list.
Revan confronting the council, and the council taking it like prison bitches
Okay, so your Revan is pissed at being mind wiped and decides to go and chew out the Jedi Council. Okay – I don’t agree that Revan is right in this instance, but hey, maybe you’re version of Revan does this. What drives me up the wall is when Revan chews the Council out the Council just sits there and takes it, letting Revan, get up on his/her high horse and yell about how unfair it was – and then suddenly, members of the council are shamed. Revan then stomps off completely assured of his or her own self-righteousness without so much as an objection from the Council.
Come on. Even if you the author thinks that the mind wipe and keeping Revan’s identity from her/him was wrong, that doesn’t mean that the Jedi Council thinks it was wrong. Would they really allow Revan, of all people, to stand in front of them bitching and moaning, and not say anything? Or would they point out that Revan created the crappy situation in the first place, which forced the Council into their plan of action?
Force healing that heals EVERYTHING.
Okay, I hate this. Where a character gets horribly wounded and in the next scene they are completely fine, because of the awesome power of force healing. I think the worst case of this that I’ve seen is where one character has gotten raped and tortured to the point where she loses her mind and the Jedi healers have a mind healing session which makes everything all better. That just smacks of the unicorn healing touch and it drives me nuts.
If the author is going to have the character get seriously injured, tortured or raped (or all three) then the author has the responsibility to deal with the physical and mental repercussions of the situation that they’ve created in their stories. Having them magically all healed in the next scene is a cop out.
Anyway… that’s my rant. Anyone else have some kotor pet peeves?
From:
no subject
Morgana
She existed. She was Carth's wife. She died. This does NOT mean that you get to make Carth forget all about her or "lessen the blow" by turning her all witchy and hen-pecky so her death looks like it was a blessing for poor beleaguered Carth. Carth said a few key things about her in the game:
Carth: She had courage and ... and she was stubborn. I could never talk her out of anything once she put her mind to it. And she hated it when I signed back onto the fleet at the start of the war. I had planned on... on leaving soon, to join her...
Carth: Because you're an impressive and beautiful woman. In some ways... good ways... you remind me of my wife and I'd like to make things right between us.
Carth: I told you my wife died four years ago. I... I've just been trying to remember what she looked like. It shouldn't be so difficult. I can remember things about her... things she did. The way she smiled, what her hair smelled like, our last fight... just not her face.
You have four adjectives to go with for characterizing Morgana: courageous, stubborn, impressive and beautiful. I don't see pushy, lecturing, cruel, or unsupportive anywhere in there. Fighting about Carth reenlisting doesn't make her OMGSOUNSUPPORTIVEOFCARTH'SBELIEFS!!!11!! Try actually marrying a military man and being away from him for long periods of time and worrying everyday that he's going to die. And then, when he finally does come back and you think the worrying's over, he re-ups again. I think you'd have a few words to say to him too.
And I don't care how big of a shrew you turn her into- Morgana will ALWAYS be a better person than Revan. She didn't kill people or destroy worlds or try to take over the galaxy. She wins, no matter how verbally abusive you make her towards Carth. End of story.
O_o OMG, heh *gets down off Morgana soapbox*
Really Badly Done Dustil
I hate overly-angsty Dustil. I mean, obviously the boy's got a lot of issues that he'll probably never come to terms with, especially with his father and Revan. But that doesn't mean he's going off on Carth/Revan every five seconds or sitting around stewing about it all the time. He was pretty close to the top of his class at a SITH ACADEMY. He didn't do any whining there- it was a weakness. Someone would have killed him just to get him to shut up. He's a teenager with issues, but he's also been through a lot and it's hardened him a little. Getting angry now and then and going off on his dad or Revan is one thing- spending all his time whining about it is another.
And then there's the other side of the spectrum- the "accepts everything with a deranged smile" Dustil. There is no way Dustil's going to parrot the rest of the crew's reactions to Revan, the whole "oh, well you're not Revan anymore so it's okay" reaction. Thankfully I haven't seen too much of this, but it makes me grind my teeth together. He's not going to be happy that his father's moving on. He's not going to be open to calling her his stepmom or anything close to a maternal figure. She's responsible for the death of his mother, and no matter how much Revan sucks up to him, I just don't think Dustil would ever forget that. He might, like Carth/Canderous, develop a grudging respect for her, but I don't see much beyond that being realistic.
Aaaand I'm spent. Heh.
From:
no subject
Oh Lord, yes. (I spend more time dissecting that boy's head, considering he got about sixty seconds of screen time.) I didn't much care for him until I got bitten by a plot bunny, and now I have just a slight obsession... Anyway, every time I try to write grown-up Dustil, he categorically refuses to angst. *shrug* Works for me. :-)
She's responsible for the death of his mother, and no matter how much Revan sucks up to him, I just don't think Dustil would ever forget that. He might, like Carth/Canderous, develop a grudging respect for her, but I don't see much beyond that being realistic.
I dunno. If I can pull off everything I want to with the post-TSL stuff I've been writing, Dustil and Revan should end up with a decent enough been-through-hell-together sort of friendship, just not any particular familial bond. (The fact that my subconscious can blithely present me with ending scenes for the damn story without paying one bit of attention to what happens in the next chapter is another rant altogether.)
From:
no subject
Nono, stay up there! Someone needs to defend her. LOL. Man I can't believe that I forgot about the Morgana mangling... I must be slipping.
I also get annoyed when Carth/Revan stories don't deal with the Morgana issue at all, which just blows my mind. Quite frankly, I'm not sure how an author expects to write Carth without at least acknowledging that there is a serious problem to work through that deals with his dead wife. I think that some authors don't like dealing with it because it takes screen time away from their angst puppy Revans and her issues. Sadly, I think the concept of their Revan not being the center of all angst and drama would sadly be surprising for a lot of authors.
And I totally agree about "overly angsty Dustil" as well as "super accepting Dustil," although for me, I think that Dustil being too accepting is almost worse, because it's like the author is not even acknowledging that there is an issue there (which is why it tends to go hand in hand with Morgana issues, I think). On the other hand, super whiney Dustil can get really annoying really fast.