I finally finished Dragon Age.

[prisoner_24601]

I kind of feel like I just ran a marathon or something. I have no idea how you all ended up beating the game so damn quickly, because it took me like 90+ hours to finish it (and I didn't even do everything). True, probably 20 of those hours were spent with the game idle and me afk chasing after the anklebiters or making dinner or whatever, but still, that was a damn long game.

Overall, I thought it was pretty fun. Not the greatest or most original game ever, but pretty consistently entertaining. If I were going to grade it against other Bioware titles, I'd have to say that I didn't enjoy it as much as Knights of the Old Republic or Balder's Gate 2, but thought it was light years better than Jade Empire. I'd put it on the same enjoyment level as Mass Effect, although the strengths of those two games seem to be the opposite from each other. Mass Effect had a more interesting plot line that was much tighter and very well thought out, but the NPC's fell kind of flat. Dragon Age had this sprawley behemoth of a plot that many times was too big and too disorganized and was often really, really contrived, but I liked the NPC interaction much better.



Some thoughts:

The Characters

Bioware really loves those character archtypes don't they? This time we get Canderous (Sten) and HK-47 (Shale) from Knights of the Old Republic and Viconia (Morrigan) from Balder's Gate. If Bioware is going to insist on putting a Canderous analog in every single one of their games, I think we need to start insisting that they finally let us romance him. At least Alistair wasn't giving off Carth vibes, which is a big improvement over the last several games.

Overall, I liked the characters though, even the ones that were regurgitations from past games. I thought that Alistair was a lot of fun to have around and had some of the best banters with everyone in the party. Honestly, I kept waiting for him and Morriagan to just start making out, so I felt vindicated in the end when he sleeps with her for the ritual. True love or whatever with the PC aside, I bet Alistair had been wanting to tap that since they met.

Leliana grew on me too, although she annoyed me at first. Zevran I thought I was going to hate (I hate elves on general principle), but his Antonio Bandares voice and shameless sexual advances and dialogue towards the party as a whole cracked me up. He and Wynne had the best banters of the whole damn game (that shit was hilarious). I wish I could have kept him around more, but I never really got around to making him like me, and he ended up betraying my party which was a bummer. Ogren was really funny to have around as well (loved the line about tattooing his name on your ass in bruises).

As for non party NPC's, I liked both Anora and Logain (although I suspect that there is probably much fangirlish rage directed in Anora's direction). I ended up choosing her for the throne over Alistair, because let's face it - as nice of a guy as Alistair is, he'd make a totally shitty and weak king. So I ended up getting the ending where you both stay together and rebuild the Grey Wardens, which after finding out what all the endings were, made the most sense to me. I may end up going back though and convincing Alistair and Anora to marry to see what happens, because that also made sense too.

The Romances

I thought the Alistair romance was okay. Overall, I liked him as a character, but he's just not my type. I think I understand all of the fangirl squee - he trips all the right buttons (he's young, hot, funny, and has that whole awkward thing that's supposed to be endearing) and on top of it, he doesn't come with baggage that a frustrated a lot of the true love fangirl contingent with Carth (dead wives and hostile kids - although that's why I found Carth interesting myself, lol). Maybe it's my age, or maybe he's just too goofy to be my type, but I was pretty indifferent about the romance angle and really only completed it out of curiosity more than anything else.

Having watched my husband romance Morrigan on his Dwarf Rogue though, I have to say though that the Alistair romance is 100 times better than the goofyness that is the Morrigan romance. I wanted to romance Leliana, but I failed to trigger it one of the early conversations (because I thought I could get to it later) and then it never came up again. And Zevran - he was just way too goofy and over the top for me to really even try.

And omg, I didn't think there was a way to make the sex even sillier than in Mass Effect, but the good people at Bioware have totally proven me wrong.

The Gameplay

Sometimes it was fun, but a lot of times it was a tedious slog. I thought I was NEVER going to get out of the Deep Roads. They should keep the difficulty (I liked that the combat wasn't super easy like other Bioware games) but cut the number of battles and the sizes of the dungeons in half.

Also - wtf, Bioware? Why do you have such a freaking hard time making hair that doesn't look completely ridiculous? And what the hell is up with the mage robes? Please, for the love of god, go over to Mod the Sims, and hire some of those artists to create hairstyles and clothing that doesn't look completely idiotic.

The Fans

Frankly, the Alistair fangirl contingent scares the hell out of me. The rabid devotion that Alistair has inspired is rather amazing, and I think it even tops the Carth fangirls from back in the day.

I found all of the outrage over Mages, Dwarves and Elves not being able to marry Alistair and become queen really hilarious. I mean, the dude so obviously does not want to be king, and here is this woman who would actually make a decent queen who wants the job, but they end up goading Alistair into taking the throne anyway, and then he ends their romance. Whereas if they'd listened to what Alistair actually wanted and gave Anora the throne they'd get to be Grey Wardens with their one true love. I'm sorry, but that's freaking priceless.

All the fangirling inspires evil urges where Alistair and Anora end up getting married and Alistair gets over the PC and lives a happy life with his wife. Or an Alistair/Leliana story or something. I kind of want to write some Sten/Leliana stuff too - they seem like they'd make an interesting pair.

Anyway a fun game, but not super awesome. I may go back and play through the other beginnings just to see those parts, but there's no freaking way I'd play through the whole thing again.

Comments

[rose70.livejournal.com]

Yay, someone else to discuss it with! Heather and I have been alone until now :)

I agree with mostly all your points. I couldn't decide if I liked or hated Alistair until the end of the game, and then I decided that he worked. For a while, I couldn't reconcile Mr. Noble Grey Warden/ex-Templar with Virgin Awkward McJokesALot. I played a City Elf, and when he asked if I'd ever "licked a lamp post," I answered no (figuring that the elves with their arranged marriages and what not probably didn't?)-- and then found the sex scene particularly hilarious since both of them were supposedly virgins.

I also couldn't decide if I bought/liked Leiliana for a while--up until she started describing how she'd dress up Morrigan if she could. Then I loved her, lol.

I thought it would take me a lot longer to get through it than it did...it could be that I have the PS3 version, and thus could play it while hanging out with my fiance (rather than shutting myself in the office at the computer).

I had some big issues with my PS3 version. I also chose Anora over Alistair (Such a DUH choice. Although then afterwards, at the battle, where he made the big speech, I was like, um, weren't you bitching earlier that you didn't want to be king because you'd have to make speeches?). However, while I got the right cutscene at the time, something broke in my game, because every single person/event afterwards acted as though I had chosen Alistair. It was supremely annoying, and I kept yelling at the TV, "I didn't do this!"

I also broke a few companions at the end apparently too--I got a marriage conversation with Alistair, and then suddenly afterwards had a "What happens when you're king?" conversation, where he was all uncertain about our future. This was doubly annoying. Despite clearly rejecting Leiliana as a romance earlier in the game, I somehow turned it back on and she told me she loved me-- leading me to have the jealousy "pick one of us!" conversation with Alistair next-- AFTER we had the marriage conversation! Not sure if it is my fault or the game's, but the bugs made the end of the game less enjoyable for me.

Check out swooping_is_bad. There be Alistair fangirling there, oh my...

I loved the banter. It was one of my favorite parts of the game, and at one point I was just running around aimlessly with different combinations of people trying to trigger it. I also got an Alistair/Leiliana vibe from their banter--like if I wasn't around/was male, they would totally hook up.

I couldn't get Zevran to like me either, although he didn't betray me (dunno if this was more stuff breaking?). I hear that if you romance him, although you sleep with him like immediately, he becomes pretty interesting and less over the top through the rest.

I also want to play through the rest of the origins, but I doubt I will play through the rest again too--unless I try to reload and get the game to actually acknowledge that I chose Anora, lol.

[winterfox.livejournal.com]

I couldn't get Zevran to like me either, although he didn't betray me

Spam gifts.

[prisoner--24601.livejournal.com]

After I picked Anora there was definitely some game goofyness. For one thing, at one point Alistair started talking about how people keep looking at him because he's their king and I was all WTF? But that seemed to be the extent of it. Everyone else seemed to go with it the rest of the time.

I think maybe it took so long because I just suck at combat. I played on normal (which seemed more like hard to me), and parts of the game were rather difficult for me. During several main battles, I kept dying and I had to reload a lot.

The banter was really fun. I kept swapping people out too just to see what they'd do. My husband is playing too, so I get to see some of the stuff I missed (he seems to be much better at triggering it than I was). I don't think I'll play through the rest of the game again to catch stuff I missed. I think I'll probably just go to you tube and find the banter I didn't get.

[winterfox.livejournal.com]

For some reason, the bridge in Ironforge Orgrimmar Ironzammar seems to trigger NPC banter a lot.

[noneko.livejournal.com]

I also got an Alistair/Leiliana vibe from their banter--like if I wasn't around/was male, they would totally hook up.

I got that vibe too! I thought I was the only one.

[prisoner--24601.livejournal.com]

Oh yeah, me too. Alistair actually seems really interested in her from the banter they share. I could totally see the two of them sharing a tent.

[winterfox.livejournal.com]

(although I suspect that there is probably much fangirlish rage directed in Anora's direction)

What? Why? I thought she was the best-done female character in the whole game. Not that that says a lot necessarily, but still, she's a huge improvement over nearly every single Bioware female character ever.

he trips all the right buttons (he's young, hot, funny, and has that whole awkward thing that's supposed to be endearing)

Yeaah, not getting it either, so either I don't have the "right" wiring or I'm going on fifty. I also pursued the romance with him as far as I could, then lol'ed and picked Zevran. I'd have gone for Leliana probably if I hadn't found her so useless for combat and left her in camp 90% of the time.

I may go back and play through the other beginnings just to see those parts, but there's no freaking way I'd play through the whole thing again.

Ditto, though currently Batman: AA takes up all my gaming time, and then The Void, and then another attempt with Ass Creed, and etc etc.

I avoid the fandom religiously because of the fangirl factor. What little I've glimpsed through non-Bioware sites is enough to make me run without looking back. Legolas/Aragorn LOTR fangirls all over again.

[prisoner--24601.livejournal.com]

I'm guessing that people hate Anora because Alistair can marry her and she gets to be Queen (if you choose that route), but their character can't (unless you play human noble). But I might be wrong about this. I haven't poked around enough to tell yet, but I'm just getting that vibe that the Alistair fangirls are going to hate her.

I liked her too. She's pragmatic, intelligent and self serving, and she and Alistair make sense as a royal couple. If he hadn't been so adamant about not being king, I probably would have insisted that they get married.

[singblueeyes.livejournal.com]

Yeah...what can I say. I loves me some Alistair. Might have something to do with the fact that I married a sweet, shy, slightly awkward hottie...heheh ... but, in the end, it was Alistair's ability to rip the heads of darkspawn that thawed my cold little heart. Seriously...I tanked this guy out, and when the entire party went down, I could keep the game rolling as he cleaned up the mess.
Although, I completely agree on not making him king. He doesn't want it. He's pledged his life and death to the wardens. There's someone perfectly qualified to do the job.
As for Sten romances...after hearing this http://video.aol.co.uk/video-detail/sten-and-morrigan-party-banter-dragon-age-origins/858093100 my dwarven tank is ALL OVER THAT. Want nOW!!! LOL

[prisoner--24601.livejournal.com]

OMG! hahahahahahaha. I die. See, I want to be all pissed at Bioware for putting an obvious Canderous type in the game, and then they do shit like that, and it makes me forgive them. I loved the dialogue with him about cookies and the Leliana/Sten banter about picking flowers and "kitten training" too.

Yeah Alistair totally does kick ass in the game. When he's all tanked out, he's really useful. Plus he gets all the cool finishing moves, which I have to admit, kinda hot, lol.

[prisoner--24601.livejournal.com]

Also, I have to ask, but is it just me or is the majority of the Alistair romance fanfiction, Alistair/Cousland (the human noble?)? It seems like it is, and I'm wondering if it's because everyone played human female nobles or if it's because they desperately wanted the Queen ending and that's the only way to get it.

[singblueeyes.livejournal.com]

*shrug*...mine's all elven mage, cuz then I can make it as fluffy as I wanna with the inherant knowledge that it's all gonna be filled with TEH PAIINZZZ later.

[singblueeyes.livejournal.com]

Ohh...also...about Anora...my rage wasn't 'fangirlish' rage...it was "Did you just betray me and call me a kidnapper???" rage...very different thing. *glowers*
LOL

[prisoner--24601.livejournal.com]

Oh yeah. When she betrayed me the first time, I was like "OMG THAT BITCH IS GOING DOWN!"

But then I decided that I didn't want another super tough fight so I reloaded and gave up. After that, she kind of grew on me because it's interesting to see someone that pragmatic and self serving in a game.

[trojanphoenix.livejournal.com]

For me the Alistair thing is all about THE VOICE. Yep, shameless fangirl here.

[prisoner--24601.livejournal.com]

I have to say that I thought the Alistair voice actor did an absolutely fantastic job bringing that character to life. I really did like him as a character, but I just kept seeing him like some kind of little brother.

I think maybe it's because it seems to me that Alistair isn't a guy that's grown into his manhood yet. He's still awkward in his own skin, he's still unsure of himself, etc.. if that makes any sense. And while I find that compelling in a character, I just don't find it particularly attractive in a romance. So I just couldn't get into him and enjoy the romance the way I did with Carth in KoTOR.

But I'm just really glad they got away from Carth clones and did something different. They definitely deserve credit for that - I just hope we're not going to see Alistair clones in the next ten Bioware games, lol.

[rose70.livejournal.com]

Oh, also, just noticed the word count thing on your sidebar. What is Ceres? No need to tell if you don't want to, I was just curious :)

[prisoner--24601.livejournal.com]

Oh, heh. I forgot that was on there. I was writing some original sci fi stuff for a while and was using the counter as motivation to get writing done. But then Dinah and I started goofing off and writing some collab kotor stuff, which is much more fun than toiling on your own with no feedback. I may go back to the story someday, but at the moment it's stalled out.

[noneko.livejournal.com]

It's funny. In my game, Alistair ended up saying that he might as well be king, because he didn't want Anora on the throne (this would be after her second betrayal - which, by the way, was awesome). I kind of boggled at that. He also decides to suddenly take the throne if he thinks you're going to spare Loghain. I think that speaks more to his relative immaturity than anything else. He still has a lot of growing up to do, apparently.

And I liked it that he broke up with you. Finally, a romance option that isn't for granted. And it was for a good reason, too! And then you can get back at him by making him sleep with Morrigan. (I agree with you - that would be some epic hate sex.)

The best outcome, IIRC, is if Anora marries Alistair. She's the politician, he's the man of the people, or something like that. I liked Anora - she frustrated me with her constant double-crossing, but she did what was necessary for her to retain power. I can respect that, haha.

[prisoner--24601.livejournal.com]

I'm going to have to try and see if I can find the second betrayal on you tube, because it sounds like a lot of fun. She's so pragmatic and ruthless. I love it.

And I liked it that he broke up with you. Finally, a romance option that isn't for granted. And it was for a good reason, too!

Oh yeah, I actually give Bioware lots of credit for having the balls to go there, and not just slapping on an ending where they ride off into the sunset on a pair of sparkly unicorns. I mean, there's a ton of good reasons, if you choose to make him King, why the two of you shouldn't be together in that situation especially if you are a dwarf or an elf or even a mage (because everyone is constantly freaked out about mages). I'm hoping they ignore the loud shrieks of outrage from the fangirl contingent and continue to write their games like this.

The fangirl outrage over it I find both hilarious and really frustrating. What really drives me up the wall is the way the fangirls blame everyone except Alistair for making that decision, even though it was very clear to me from what I've seen that it is very much Alistair's decision. The latest trend is to blame Arl Eamon for "talking" Alistair into it, even though the only person in the game who can really push for Alistair to become king is your Grey Warden. In fact, the Arl seems to take it for granted that you and Alistair will remain lovers (if not get married), because if you bring up the idea of Alistair marrying Anora to him, he's all "Are you sure, dude, cause I though you and Alistair had something going on?"

And it never seems to occur to them that the reasons are legitimate and really damn important. I mean, having an heir is really freaking important in that situation. So is being able to forge a coalition of leadership to stop the damned blight and rebuild the country. So is having someone around to continue rebuilding the Grey Wardens. They both have pressing duties in different directions, and I get irritated with the "But true love should conquer all!" contingent. And why they are so hung up on becoming Queen I also don't get. If they want to ride off into the sunset with him, they should just make Anora queen. But they can't seem to accept that either (with the excuse that Anora would make a horrible queen and that she's Teh Evil, etc...)

I swear, two days in the fandom and the fans are already driving me nuts, lol.

The best outcome, IIRC, is if Anora marries Alistair. She's the politician, he's the man of the people, or something like that. I liked Anora - she frustrated me with her constant double-crossing, but she did what was necessary for her to retain power. I can respect that, haha.

This makes sense to me. They seem like they have different skills and personality traits that would balance each other quite well. He'd need her political savvy. She'd need his moral compass, and in my brain, I think he'd eventually get over the Grey Warden and grow to love and respect his wife. (Fandom blasphemy I know, lol).

I think I'm going to have to do some writing. Epic hate sexxors between Morrigan and Alistair seems like way too much fun. And I keep coming up with Anora/Alistair ideas. I hate my brain sometimes, lol.

Glad to hear the game is actually fun to play

[nivenus.livejournal.com]

As you know my experience was better, but I think the environment had a lot to do with that.

The game still looks like it's gameplay is somewhat shallow compared to something like, say, NWN2 or KotOR, but I expect that's what a lot of people actually wanted (I can be a complexity addict at times).

With yours, noneko, and mad's recommendations I have little reason not to at least give this a chance.

Re: Glad to hear the game is actually fun to play

[prisoner--24601.livejournal.com]

Yeah, it's a pretty solid game. Not groundbreaking by any stretch, and not as cool as KOTOR or BG, but still pretty solid entertainment.

My husband is enjoying the hell out of it (even though he thinks the Morrigan romance is utterly silly, lol), which is interesting because I can almost never get him to play stuff. And now he's talking about installing mods and paying for extra DLC.

I don't know if the gameplay is shallower - more like it sprawls all over the place and drags on for too long at times. But once you hit a certain event, the plot kicks into high gear and the choices you can make get much more interesting. It just seems to take FOREVER to get to that part.

[wapiti-baris.livejournal.com]

Hello! Wow, it's been a long time since I lurked around LJ, even longer your journal.

I saw your name in bioware fangirls comm and decided to take look if you played DA:O as well and this post made me go and look for some fanfiction after reading the fans part - I did not dare going in search of communities however.

Most of the fics I stumbled across tell more about the writers rather than a story or the characters from the game. Admittedly, I'm a little shocked how this fandom managed to create so many poor quality fics. I pray that it's my luck -or lack there of- that I found only one promising and one really good story out of a few dozens I tried to read and there are way more good ones that I'm yet to find.

My main annoyance with the fics has been the portrayal of the characters - particularly Alistair because they tend to put him in the center of a story yet he sounds anything but himself. It's true he makes silly jokes and what not but I tend to think there's much more to him than the stuttering fool who goes frolicking with the PC hand in hand - based on my own game, though, who knows? Strangely, I was hearing Carth's voice in my head when Alistair talked in these fics. I tried to rationalize it that maybe I was more familiar with that voice thanks to Kotor and ME until I found a fic where Alistair was perfectly in character and I could actually hear his own voice in my head. Hmm.

Speaking of voices, the VA in the game was fantastic. Brilliant writing and briliant voice acting made me feel above the clouds for a while. But of course, there were times when I was utterly bored with the game too.

Another problem was; I don't remember any other Bioware game that I was disappointed with the PC's dialogue options so many times. A lot of times, the answer I wanted or even a close one simply was not there.

On a brighter note, I really liked the ambiguousness of 'right or wrong decisions' in the game. Like you mentioned for example, making Alistair king is not necessarily the right decision just like making Anora queen is not a wrong one either. However, I feel ashamed to admit that I guess I became a victim of fangirls there. I saw many comments about how to make Alistair king and your PC a queen, trying to avoid reading them all the while that I ended up thinking that is the game's ultimate goal for you to achieve and the idea of it all ending up as you becoming a queen really made me lose my enthusiasm for the game after that point. (I think I also forgot how the RPGs work in principle but that's another story.) I dutifully achieved that ending and was left depressed. Silly me. I too however find it rather terrifying having to go through even the last part of the game again. For now at least.

I am with you about Morrigan/Alistair. I enjoyed their banter a lot and now after reading a fanfic that had no intention of making the reader feel that way made me like them as an utterly disfunctional pairing. Well, at least they got their one night.

All in all, I think this games's strength is the characters. Very well thought out, well written and acted. With the game fleshing out it's characters so well, I'm not amused when I see them OOC. Or maybe I'm just getting pickier and grumpier as I get older after all :P

Look at the length of that comment!

[prisoner--24601.livejournal.com]

Heyas! It's good to see you. And I love big long comments, lol.

I have to agree with the quality of the fanfiction out there. On the whole, it's not nearly as good as stuff in the KoTOR fandom. I think part of that might be because it's a fairly new fandom, but then I think about what was getting written this early after KoTOR was release, and it was still tons better.

You're right about most stories being about Alistair (and a poorly written Alistair at that). It seems that the vast majority are about Alistair/Cousland (human noble female). Most of the time the Grey Warden doesn't have much personality, there's no real plot, and all they do is talk about their true love. There is some good stuff out there, but it's taken me awhile to find it.

Some of the best I've seen are:

Rogue on the Rocks (http://www.fanfiction.net/s/5580442/1/) by Tarente11a, which is a post game Zevran story with an honest to god plot.

Trovommi Amor (http://www.fanfiction.net/s/5541044/1/) by icey cold, which is, of all things, a completely excellent Loghain/Cousland romance.

Suprises (http://www.fanfiction.net/s/5552504/1/) by Kosiah, which is a more realistic and interesting twist on the happy Alistair/Cousland king and queen ending.

Bamftastic has really great one shot (http://community.livejournal.com/swooping_is_bad/273000.html) about Zevran/Cousland/Alistair thirty years after the game.

So far I've written two shorts. One's a Male!Amell/Alistair/Anora endgame fic (Aftershocks) (http://www.fanfiction.net/s/5622633/1/Aftershocks) and one is a Morrigan story that features the whole party (Fallen Companion) (http://www.fanfiction.net/s/5648227/1/Fallen_Companion).

But I agree about everything you said about the game. Love the characters, voice acting and morally ambiguous choices. I would have loved to see more dialogue options. There were also times when it wasn't clear what you were doing (like the stuff about toughening Alistair up) and it would have been awesome if they'd given you more than one shot and one obscure dialogue option to do that.

The fans... I think the problem is that they're so new. And in the most active communities like swooping_is_bad, everything focus on all Alistair, all the time. There's also a ton of disturbing character bashing when it comes to Anora, Morrigan, Isolde, Eamon or anyone who might in anyway interfere with the romance. I can understand not liking a particular character, but the sheer bile directed at some of them is absolutely boggling, and kind of depressing actually. I am hoping that as the fandom gets a bit older, there will be calmer places that crop up to hang out at. I am hoping that biowarefangirls is one of them. I also know that kotorfanmedia (http://hawk.kotorfanmedia.com/) is going to expand their archive and their forums to include Dragon Age, Mass Effect and the Old Republic MMO shortly, which should be a great place to hang out (especially since it will have a broader focus than just Alistair) once it gets up and going.

[(Anonymous)]

Maybe a bit of a late reply but I only finished playing the game a couple of weeks ago.
On my first playthrough I chose Anora as Queen, second one I put a hardened Alistair on the throne.
Yes Anora was an interesting character, but reading the epilogue on how she ruled it just seemed like she was the same old noble who seemed to be quite selfish. The hardened Alistair seemed more accepting and ready to be King and I found his epilogue a lot more satisfying (he asked Wynne to represent the Circle at court, he put an elf to represent the elves etcetc.)
Yes Alistair is the typical goofy "love me" - character, but during my playthroughs I thought that he seemed to grow up more and develop. I felt the same with Leliana, especially after you do her personal quest and if you harden her she becomes a more interesting in depth character.
Morrigan never really got to me, even if she did say she would call me a friend. I loved Sten (there is a highlarious conversation when you're at Lake Calenhad and he bribes the guard with cookies he stole from a fat kid saying "I did him a favour").
But yes, I guess my point was that not everyone who plays a FPC Cousland and pairs her up with Alistair is a crazy fangirl.
I found the Cousland background to be really fascinating and I was really disappointed that A. PC Cousland did not get a more satisfying revenge scene on Arl Howe and B. That Fergus seems to just have been completely forgotten until he turns up in the post coronation scene.
At least in ME the PC had a personal quest sometime during the playthrough that the player could choose to complete. IMO there should have been at least some point in the game where you could track down to see what happened to your brother.
I felt the same with the Mage and dalish elf background; Jowan never really got to me, and Tamlen... well, considering they were so close it just felt like the story fell flat when you meet him again.
Anyway, enough of my rant.