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I have to admit that, while I'm a sucker for a good romance, I actually detest 95% of romance novels. Romance seems to work better when it is worked into a larger, overarching plot, at least for me. So when I found myself writing a pure romance story (i.e. romance as the main focus of the plot), I was kind of shocked.
Since I have never attempted writing one before, I realized that I had no idea how to put a romance together, so I watched a lot of movies and read a lot of romance novels to try to figure it out. I also checked out the internet, and discovered there are an amazing number of websites dedicated to romance writing tips (most of which I completely disagree with). But instead of finding a common denominator about what I liked, I seemed to find a common denominator of things that irritated me and turned me off to the story (heh - I wonder what that says about me...LOL).
I made a list of things that annoy the hell out of me in romance stories. I tried to keep the list particular to romance stories, so things that plague all stories (like Mary Sues) I left off the list. And I thought I would share my awesome and profound wisdom with you all... :P
1. Characters who would be having sex, should have sex.
This is a huge pet peeve of mine. There are absolutely wonderful stories out there that have been ruined by this. It drives me absolutely insane when I see two characters, totally hot for each other and madly in love, who for some amazingly contrived plot reason, aren't having sex. It becomes especially annoying when characters are about to have sex and get interrupted again, and again, and again. I think this happens because a lot of romance authors are told that unless sex is going to reveal something about the characters or make the situation worse, it shouldn't happen, because it kills the romantic tension of the story. I kind of see their point, but I don't think that the answer is to come up with completely convoluted plot reasons for the characters not to do the deed.
There are legitimate reasons for two characters not sleeping together. But unless the author has established a cultural, ethical, or legitimate plot reason, I tune out as a reader when I see this. For instance, I wouldn't expect for characters in romance set in Edwardian England to sleep together until they got married. I wouldn't expect a shy and modest character to just jump into bed without some thought first.
2. If a character is raped (or abused as a child), then they don't get to be healed by the power of their one true love.
It's surprising how often this shows up in stories. A character will get raped, but because of the love and TLC of their significant other (and some extremely hot sex), everything is all better in the space of an extremely short period of time.
Come on. This kind of horrible abuse takes years to get over, and it is disrespectful to see writers use this as a plot contrivance to create teh drama and teh angst. What I especially hate are stories where a character is raped, but then magically healed by telepaths or the Force, so that ten minutes later, she's normal again and ready for some lovin'.
If an author is going to have a character get raped, then it is that author's duty to treat the material with respect, and actually deal with the realistic consequences. This means that the heroine will not want to be touched by another man, even her one true love, unless she's been through a lot of therapy.
3. Characters need to have a life outside of the romance.
I've read stories where I get the feeling that when the hero leaves the heroine alone, all she does is think about her lover, and wish that he were back with her. She doesn't exist as a separate person with their own desires, wants, needs, motivations, and everything revolves around the other person. This kind of co-dependant behavior is not sexy... it's dysfunctional and creepy.
4. "My love."
Unless they were living a hundred years ago, or so... people don't call each other this. Really, they don't. Seriously, this makes me want to giggle every time a character says this.
5. Characters need to like each other before they fall in love.
I've read some stories where the two characters, are totally attracted to each other for no other reason than the author says so. They are completely shitty to each other, they bicker and abuse each other horribly (because they love each other so much - don't you see) and then they all of the sudden declare their love and we the readers are supposed to believe that these two people are soul mates. WTF?
The characters need to like each other, and see qualities in each other that they like and are attracted to. This doesn't mean that the characters always have to agree with one another, but if the author hasn't shown me some reason for why these two people would like each other, beyond physical attraction, it's hard to get emotionally invested in the relationship. I've actually read romance novels where at the end, when the characters are finally together and all is happy, all I can think about is how these two people will be divorced in a year.
6. Misunderstandings that can be solved by two adults sitting down for five minutes and talking like adults, should be solved that way.
I hate it when misunderstandings drag on, and on, and on. There has to be a better way to create plot tension than that.
7. Love at first sight is boring.
Seriously, it is. At least it is in a romance novel. The whole fun is watching the attraction grow, so skipping to the cream of the story in the beginning completely defeats the purpose.
8. So is OMG! ONE TRU WUV!!!!111!!!!.
This is a huge pet peeve of mine, especially in Kotor fanfiction. Listen, ladies, Carth was married before he met Revan, and presumably he was happy (in fact, it makes it much more tragic if he loved his wife). Revan, is not his ONE TRU WUV 4EVAR.
Realistically, people can fall in love with all different kinds of people. I don't buy the soul mates forever thing in life or in fiction. Maybe I'm just jaded about this, I don't know. But when I see it in stories, I get bored.
9. Heroines need to act like adults, and not like complete flaky twits.
Personally, unless written very well (such as Bridget Jones' Diary), I find it almost impossible to identify with stupid, flighty, female, co-dependant characters. There are a lot of heroines in romance novels, whom I just want to smack and yell "Grow the hell up!" at.
10. If a hero is not a nice man, then stop writing fluffy romances about him.
This happens in kotor2 fanfic, a lot. Atton is not a nice man. He has some deeply scary mental issues that are unresolved in the game. He is also a complete and utter horndog. So if an author wants to write a fluffy romance featuring Atton, they need to do some serious character development before I'll believe that this man 1) actually can love the Exile, 2) actually does love the Exile and 3) that he is capable of having a functional relationship.
Anyway, that is the extent of my awesome wisdom. :P
Since I have never attempted writing one before, I realized that I had no idea how to put a romance together, so I watched a lot of movies and read a lot of romance novels to try to figure it out. I also checked out the internet, and discovered there are an amazing number of websites dedicated to romance writing tips (most of which I completely disagree with). But instead of finding a common denominator about what I liked, I seemed to find a common denominator of things that irritated me and turned me off to the story (heh - I wonder what that says about me...LOL).
I made a list of things that annoy the hell out of me in romance stories. I tried to keep the list particular to romance stories, so things that plague all stories (like Mary Sues) I left off the list. And I thought I would share my awesome and profound wisdom with you all... :P
1. Characters who would be having sex, should have sex.
This is a huge pet peeve of mine. There are absolutely wonderful stories out there that have been ruined by this. It drives me absolutely insane when I see two characters, totally hot for each other and madly in love, who for some amazingly contrived plot reason, aren't having sex. It becomes especially annoying when characters are about to have sex and get interrupted again, and again, and again. I think this happens because a lot of romance authors are told that unless sex is going to reveal something about the characters or make the situation worse, it shouldn't happen, because it kills the romantic tension of the story. I kind of see their point, but I don't think that the answer is to come up with completely convoluted plot reasons for the characters not to do the deed.
There are legitimate reasons for two characters not sleeping together. But unless the author has established a cultural, ethical, or legitimate plot reason, I tune out as a reader when I see this. For instance, I wouldn't expect for characters in romance set in Edwardian England to sleep together until they got married. I wouldn't expect a shy and modest character to just jump into bed without some thought first.
2. If a character is raped (or abused as a child), then they don't get to be healed by the power of their one true love.
It's surprising how often this shows up in stories. A character will get raped, but because of the love and TLC of their significant other (and some extremely hot sex), everything is all better in the space of an extremely short period of time.
Come on. This kind of horrible abuse takes years to get over, and it is disrespectful to see writers use this as a plot contrivance to create teh drama and teh angst. What I especially hate are stories where a character is raped, but then magically healed by telepaths or the Force, so that ten minutes later, she's normal again and ready for some lovin'.
If an author is going to have a character get raped, then it is that author's duty to treat the material with respect, and actually deal with the realistic consequences. This means that the heroine will not want to be touched by another man, even her one true love, unless she's been through a lot of therapy.
3. Characters need to have a life outside of the romance.
I've read stories where I get the feeling that when the hero leaves the heroine alone, all she does is think about her lover, and wish that he were back with her. She doesn't exist as a separate person with their own desires, wants, needs, motivations, and everything revolves around the other person. This kind of co-dependant behavior is not sexy... it's dysfunctional and creepy.
4. "My love."
Unless they were living a hundred years ago, or so... people don't call each other this. Really, they don't. Seriously, this makes me want to giggle every time a character says this.
5. Characters need to like each other before they fall in love.
I've read some stories where the two characters, are totally attracted to each other for no other reason than the author says so. They are completely shitty to each other, they bicker and abuse each other horribly (because they love each other so much - don't you see) and then they all of the sudden declare their love and we the readers are supposed to believe that these two people are soul mates. WTF?
The characters need to like each other, and see qualities in each other that they like and are attracted to. This doesn't mean that the characters always have to agree with one another, but if the author hasn't shown me some reason for why these two people would like each other, beyond physical attraction, it's hard to get emotionally invested in the relationship. I've actually read romance novels where at the end, when the characters are finally together and all is happy, all I can think about is how these two people will be divorced in a year.
6. Misunderstandings that can be solved by two adults sitting down for five minutes and talking like adults, should be solved that way.
I hate it when misunderstandings drag on, and on, and on. There has to be a better way to create plot tension than that.
7. Love at first sight is boring.
Seriously, it is. At least it is in a romance novel. The whole fun is watching the attraction grow, so skipping to the cream of the story in the beginning completely defeats the purpose.
8. So is OMG! ONE TRU WUV!!!!111!!!!.
This is a huge pet peeve of mine, especially in Kotor fanfiction. Listen, ladies, Carth was married before he met Revan, and presumably he was happy (in fact, it makes it much more tragic if he loved his wife). Revan, is not his ONE TRU WUV 4EVAR.
Realistically, people can fall in love with all different kinds of people. I don't buy the soul mates forever thing in life or in fiction. Maybe I'm just jaded about this, I don't know. But when I see it in stories, I get bored.
9. Heroines need to act like adults, and not like complete flaky twits.
Personally, unless written very well (such as Bridget Jones' Diary), I find it almost impossible to identify with stupid, flighty, female, co-dependant characters. There are a lot of heroines in romance novels, whom I just want to smack and yell "Grow the hell up!" at.
10. If a hero is not a nice man, then stop writing fluffy romances about him.
This happens in kotor2 fanfic, a lot. Atton is not a nice man. He has some deeply scary mental issues that are unresolved in the game. He is also a complete and utter horndog. So if an author wants to write a fluffy romance featuring Atton, they need to do some serious character development before I'll believe that this man 1) actually can love the Exile, 2) actually does love the Exile and 3) that he is capable of having a functional relationship.
Anyway, that is the extent of my awesome wisdom. :P
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This is a huge pet peeve of mine, especially in Kotor fanfiction. Listen, ladies, Carth was married before he met Revan, and presumably he was happy (in fact, it makes it much more tragic if he loved his wife). Revan, is not his ONE TRU WUV 4EVAR.
I read part of a fic the other day where Carth sat Revan down before proposing to her and told her how he had been young and carefree and rushed into his marriage with Morgana, and all she did was hen-peck him about staying home, and while he was in the fleet he heard rumors about her being unfaithful. Dustil apparently confirmed it when he found him, and Morgana was going to leave him when he returned to Telos but then she died.
Now don't get me wrong, I'd be willing to accept an unfaithful Morgana if it was done well. (I'd definitely be tempted if I was left alone all the time with my young son, even if my husband WAS Carth Onasi :P) But why does it always have to be that she was a lesser person than Revan? (Which you can never do, no matter how much of hen-picking harpy you turn Morgana into. Revan DESTROYED WORLDS, KILLED THOUSANDS, tried to TAKE OVER THE GALAXY BY BRUTE FORCE. Morgana's going to win this one no matter what.) Why does it have to be that he loves Revan X amount of times more than he ever loved Morgana? Why can't they both be attractive women with good personalities that he loved for different reasons but still equally?
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Oh yeah. Virginal Revan's are so hard to not giggle at. I simply don't get that.
Maybe we can combine the two; Carth and Revan are both virgins because that horrible slut Morgana got knocked up by... Saul Karath!
ahahahahah. There you go!
Now I need to go wash out my brain...
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Now don't get me wrong, I'd be willing to accept an unfaithful Morgana if it was done well. (I'd definitely be tempted if I was left alone all the time with my young son, even if my husband WAS Carth Onasi :P)
Oh yeah, word on that one. I mean, it had to be hard for her, and I could easily see this happening, but it sounds like the author was using it to demonize Morgana. I noticed, actually, a lot of resentment towards Morgana's existence way back in the Onasi Order in it's original incarnation on the Bioboards. There was an awful lot of resentment that Carth had been married before, which I found so amazingly strange.
But why does it always have to be that she was a lesser person than Revan? (Which you can never do, no matter how much of hen-picking harpy you turn Morgana into. Revan DESTROYED WORLDS, KILLED THOUSANDS, tried to TAKE OVER THE GALAXY BY BRUTE FORCE. Morgana's going to win this one no matter what.)
Oh, no doubt. That's why the comparison just kills me.
Why does it have to be that he loves Revan X amount of times more than he ever loved Morgana?
There was once a discussion back on the Bioboards where a lot of women insisted that Revan was a better match for Carth than his wife (who we really know nothing about – except what we make up about her), because both Revan and Carth had bonded over an intense quest in a battle like situation, so Revan could understand Carth in a way that Morgana never could... *insert eye roll here* They also insisted that if Revan had met Carth while he was still married, that he would leave Morgana for Revan (despite the fact that it would be seriously out of character for him to do something like that).
I think the problem is that these posters buy into the whole one true love idea, and it is really, really hard to be someone's one true love, if he's been married before... They also see themselves as Revan, so they don't like the idea of the competition.
Btw: you need to write some Morgana, Rose. I totally want to see your version.
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To the author's credit, I think she still acknowledges that Carth loved Morgana, but...still. (I feel kinda bad, cause this is someone who's read and complimented my stuff. I never know what to do in situations like that; when someone checks out my stuff and then I go to check out their stuff and it's kinda...well...not that great :/)
I noticed, actually, a lot of resentment towards Morgana's existence way back in the Onasi Order in it's original incarnation on the Bioboards. There was an awful lot of resentment that Carth had been married before, which I found so amazingly strange.
Yeah, I don't get this either. Doesn't it make Revan more special if she managed to make Carth fall in love again after the woman he thought was the only one he'd ever love died? It pretty much loses all meaning if he didn't love his wife and Revan was who he was meant to be with, blah blah and so on.
There was once a discussion back on the Bioboards where a lot of women insisted that Revan was a better match for Carth than his wife (who we really know nothing about – except what we make up about her), because both Revan and Carth had bonded over an intense quest in a battle like situation, so Revan could understand Carth in a way that Morgana never could...
...the hell? Most militaristic organizations in the world don't allow women into their ranks, and even the ones that do don't have that many. Therefore, most military men in the world aren't married to women who have "bonded with them through battle". Granted this is different in the Star Wars universe, but...look, we're still all PEOPLE here lol regardless of whether your galaxy consists of the Milky Way or includes planets like Corscant and Kashyyyk and the like. And people don't have to share a profession or bond over life-changing events to fall in love. You need a certain degree of fantasy and suspension of disbelief when dealing with sci fi/fantasy fan fic, but people have got to act realistically too.
Btw: you need to write some Morgana, Rose. I totally want to see your version.
Pshaw. I love yours too much to attempt a pale comparison ;)
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More Morgana fics need to be done. She's an interesting character and it'd be awesome to see another great author's take on her.
Doooooo it.
Peer pressure.
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(I feel kinda bad, cause this is someone who's read and complimented my stuff. I never know what to do in situations like that; when someone checks out my stuff and then I go to check out their stuff and it's kinda...well...not that great :/)
I've had to struggle with this myself, so I understand how you feel. The conclusion I've come to is that unless someone tells the author the problems in their story, how are they going know that those problems exist or grow as an author?
Actually, while I've had a few authors get mad at me, most authors are rather gracious about the reviews they get, even if they completely disagree with what I've told them.
Pshaw. I love yours too much to attempt a pale comparison ;)
Aww... come and join us in the cult of Morgana... You know you want too... LOL.
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I read the rest of her story in an attempt to be fair and put her characterization in context, and this insanely long review was the result.
I followed the link, read your review, and read the comments following it. It made me... seethe. Dangerously. Apparently the KotOR fandom, too, has its share of "u r so meeeen1!11 this iz fanfiction so she can do wutevah she wnats!11!!" fanbrats. Grrr.
*takes a deep breath* And this is why I deliberately keep myself as a fandom recluse (don't go to kotorfanmedia.com, don't go to
Oh, screw it. Can you link me to the worst offenders of OOC Canderous? Or OOC, period?
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Heh... I understand completely. I have to say though that the mods on both sites are fantastic people. When trouble started brewing over on kfm (http://www.kotorfanmedia.com/) the mods backed me up, and have been amazingly cool about my reviews. They’ve tried to put a lid on all the nonsense, although since that blow up there has been another incident (over my review for the Morgana story linked below), which they quickly shut down. I suspect that there will be more in the future though, since the animosity seems to grow, and I simply refuse to stop leaving my reviews because some overly sensitive people are pissed off at me.
I've been informed that there is actually a group of writers who have been bitching to the mods about me, which is kind of hilarious really. The thing is that at least 80% of all my reviews are entirely positive, so I'm not sure where all this animosity is coming from, other than these people have no clue as to what constructive criticism really is. I’m not certain, but I think this review (http://kotorfanmedia.com/story/jiara/questions-of-character-chapter-6/) might be the review that started my anti-fan club (even though no one said anything at the time - I think this is the review that Lady Viola was referring to when she jumped in my shit over Caritas O’s story), because this author is extremely popular in both her writing and on the message boards. It has to be that review, because other than a negative review of a male Revan story (which I highly doubt any of these Carth fangirls read), all of my comments on kfm before the big blowup in Caritas O's story had been almost entirely positive (unless I'm forgetting something).
Oh, screw it. Can you link me to the worst offenders of OOC Canderous? Or OOC, period?
Most of the stuff I've read lately is actually pretty decent. I haven't seen many examples of OOC Canderous recently, since there don't seem to be a lot of fics with him in it. The biggest OOC offenders that I've seen lately are boneheaded Carth (http://kotorfanmedia.com/story/jiara/questions-of-character-chapter-1/) (because Carth would totally be stupid enough to give Revan a diamond ring from TELOS), and super forgiving Morgana (http://kotorfanmedia.com/story/jiara/the-gift/) (because, you know, that the afterlife makes everyone as forgiving as Jesus). Interestingly
These fics are far from god awful... but they have some serious characterization issues. Actually, my comment for the Morgana fic spawned some silliness from a poster named Phantom who took offense and attacked me and my review. The author herself weighed in, and I could tell that she was extremely pissed off at me (which is actually kind of rare, since the authors are generally far more gracious than their readers are). The mods deleted both of their posts (which was kind of disappointing in a way, cause I found the sheer venom against me kinda funny) but left my review stand which I'm grateful for. The Morgana fic ended up winning the writing challenge, so I guess this shows how different my tastes are from everyone else.
Here is a far worse version of OCC Carth (http://www.fanfiction.net/s/2382471/1/).
For some really awesome badfic, this monstrosity (http://kotorfanmedia.com/story/aaron-lightblade/aaron-lightblade-general-of-the-republic-verse-i/) is the worst story I've seen in a long time, and the author's comments to the reviews are hilariously pretentious.
So you won’t loose faith in humanity, I feel compelled to link Binary Star's story (http://kotorfanmedia.com/story/binary-star/before-the-dawn-part-1/) which is the best I've read in months.
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I think it's cool Carth was married and had a kid. It means he's housebroken. :D
I can see the bonding in battle, but bonding doesn't lead to understanding - or love - although given that both Revan and Carth served in the wars, both have killed people, up close and from a distance, she may understand the pain and regret he must go through better than Morgana, if, of course, a given Morgana wasn't a soldier. War's an ugly business, and I can't see Carth pouring out the horror stories to his wife when he sees her on leave, whereas Revan would know already.
I agree with Rose about writing Morgana... who'd remember my Morgana? When people ask, "Morgana", they'll go, oh, that cute little blonde engineer with the nice rack, right? Yeah, she's cool. And I'll go, "..."
Think I'll just stick with Morgana art and mentions of her in my fic, thanks. I told you about drawing "The Last Goodbye", which seems to be turning into its own little comic in my head...
Wow, that turned into a bloody long ramble, didn't it? Yikes.
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I think my main problem with the virginal!Revan is that when the council gave her memories, presumably they gave her memories of an average woman in her late twenties or early thirties who was not a Jedi. In addition, Revan almost always seems to be portrayed as a rebel (and usually a very good looking one at that), so unless Revan were interested in being a good Jedi when she was a Jedi, then I really can't see this either. Her age combined with how hot most authors make her and how rebellious most authors write her makes the odds of Revan being a virgin almost nil. Although if the author established Revan as being the kind of person where this were believable, I really wouldn't have a problem with it no matter what her age is.
However, my main gripe with virginal!Revan is that she tends to be used in a one true love paring with Carth, as if the author is afraid that if Revan had been in a sexual relationship before now, it would somehow soil their love.
I can see the bonding in battle, but bonding doesn't lead to understanding - or love - although given that both Revan and Carth served in the wars, both have killed people, up close and from a distance, she may understand the pain and regret he must go through better than Morgana, if, of course, a given Morgana wasn't a soldier. War's an ugly business, and I can't see Carth pouring out the horror stories to his wife when he sees her on leave, whereas Revan would know already.
Oh yeah, this I can see. I think what annoyed me was the whole idea that because Morgana hadn't bonded with him in battle, there was no possible way that she could understand him the way that Revan did, which is silly since presumably Morgana got to see him in a context that Revan doesn't. The two of them had a child together, which is one of the biggest bonds that two people can have. It just kinda smacked of jealous fangirls resenting a dead fictional character - which was so weird.
I agree with Rose about writing Morgana... who'd remember my Morgana? When people ask, "Morgana", they'll go, oh, that cute little blonde engineer with the nice rack, right? Yeah, she's cool. And I'll go, "..."
LOL. Both you and Rose need to come and join me and Arrow in the cult of Morgana. Come on... It'll be fun...
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Well, it depends on how deep their manipulation went. They could give her a bad experience with a would-be lover or boys/girls, which doesn't need to be as bad as rape, but something that may hit her self-esteem (laughed at in high school, spurned by someone she had a crush on, etc.). I'm not sure if my cynical suggestion is better or worse than the thought of men in their sixties and older giving her memories of sex.
Rebel!Revan is the, uh, archetype?, I'm working with. :D Rebel can mean all sorts of things, though, and there are different degrees of rebelling. A white woman in the days of Martin Luther King protesting at a lunch counter, for instance, would be a rebel in some eyes, but she could be a total prude when it comes to sex. Maybe a certain Rebel!Revan was totally anti-authority, but all hot air when it comes to sex. Not that I don't understand what you're saying; a streak of rebelliousness usually touches on all things, from authority to personal sexuality, but not necessarily to the same degree.
Ah, now that I understand. I think this is silly, as can be seen in my fic; Revan's had a string of lovers before she ever left for the Mandalorian Wars.
(Although one true love 'paring' gave me all sorts of amusing images that involved potato peelers. The Grammar Nazi I/O buffer can output some weird shit sometimes.)
Oh, yeah, I totally agree. I can understand the jealous fangirl phenomenon, though. Who'd want to share Carth with anybody? :D I'll actually touch on this jealousy/resentment feeling in my fic.
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It's true that they could do this, but why would they purposely give someone psychological trauma? I mean, creating memories is one thing, but deliberately giving her bad ones seems extremely cruel, and I can't see them doing that unless they thought they had a very good reason.
Actually, I have seen some stories that do this, where Revan has traumatic memories in her false identity. Unless there is a really compelling reason for the masters to mess her up this way, I just don't think that they would do it.
As far as the old men giving someone memories of sex, I think
Rebel!Revan is the, uh, archetype?, I'm working with. :D Rebel can mean all sorts of things, though, and there are different degrees of rebelling.
Most versions of Revan seem to be rather rebellious in at least their defiance of the Council, and I think part of the reason is that in the game, some of the dialogue choices are hilariously mouthy, in addition to the fact that Revan was at least rebellious enough to defy the Council and go fight the Mandalorians.
True, there are varying degrees of rebelliousness, and it is possible that a thirty something Revan could still be a virgin. But what I guess it boils down to is this: unless the author takes the time to lay the plausible foundation for why someone like Revan would still be a virgin, then I generally just tune out. And every single time I've seen virginal!Revan in a story, it is usually so she can be deflowered by her one true love, Carth (or at least that's what it seems that the author is trying to do).
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I did say not rape. I would not classify teasing in high school as 'psychological trauma', although it can be cruel. A given Revan could've gotten a 'Let's just be friends' line, and that could've turned her off to future relationships. I'm not saying this is realistic, but it could happen.
And every single time I've seen virginal!Revan in a story, it is usually so she can be deflowered by her one true love, Carth (or at least that's what it seems that the author is trying to do).
Okay, I get what you're saying here. That does smack of one true wuvness. Happily, I don't have this problem. :D
Going back to the jealous fangirls thing, though... I think I do sorta see their view. I think a given Revan really might feel jealous of Morgana, a dead woman. It's not logical, but emotions rarely are, and rarely controllable (I don't care what the Jedi say), but she might (and feel really bad about it). I mean, who doesn't want to be the only person in someone's life, right? The one true love they'll have and will ever have. Not logical, again, but dealing in emotions rarely is.
I'm gonna work this angle, but I'd like to see what you think. I think Revan might really be envious of the normal life Carth and Morgana led (glossing over the fact that he was rarely home during the wars), and their having had a kid together. I think Revan would want to have the same thing with Carth, except she can't, being a Jedi (if she hasn't turned her back on the Order, something I find dubious in fanfics if she's been depicted as the responsible, remorseful Jedi). I think she'd feel really bad that she can't have the proverbial house with the white picket fence life with him, and she may long for that sort of life even though she's probably not fit for it and it would probably drive her crazy after the first day.
I have to wonder, too, just how suited to that white picket fence Carth is, too. I mean, two wars and the trauma of having his wife die and his homeworld destroyed will change a person in unexpected ways, and I wonder if he isn't stuck in the 'action, gotta save the galaxy' mode permanently after that.
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Oh I didn't mean rape either. All I'm saying is that if they have the choice of giving her a happy past (where she was a cheerleader and dating the captain of the football team) or one with some angst (like making her the head of the chess club that gets teased and turned down by boys), wouldn't they pick the first option, just to make sure there wasn't any bitterness that might crop up and lead her to the dark side?
Going back to the jealous fangirls thing, though... I think I do sorta see their view. I think a given Revan really might feel jealous of Morgana, a dead woman. It's not logical, but emotions rarely are, and rarely controllable (I don't care what the Jedi say), but she might (and feel really bad about it).
Oh yeah, I can see Revan herself feeling some jealousy and insecurity (and a whole heap of guilt) towards Morgana. Absolutely. I just found it strange that a bunch of fangirls were jealous of the dead wife of a completely fictional character. I just wanted to scream: "You're not Revan. He's not a real guy..."
I think Revan might really be envious of the normal life Carth and Morgana led (glossing over the fact that he was rarely home during the wars), and their having had a kid together.
This I can totally see. It makes a lot of sense to me, especially in the case of your Revan who is completely unsuited to that kind of life. I can see Min feeling this way too, although I doubt she'd settle for something as mundane as a white picket fence (more like a palatial mansion and designer clothes...lol).
I have to wonder, too, just how suited to that white picket fence Carth is, too. I mean, two wars and the trauma of having his wife die and his homeworld destroyed will change a person in unexpected ways, and I wonder if he isn't stuck in the 'action, gotta save the galaxy' mode permanently after that.
This is a good point too... although maybe it doesn't have to be one or the other. Possibly if they worked really hard at it, they could find a compromise. But then I'm in the minority view that thinks that Revan would have to go into self imposed exile, because it would be impossible to live any kind of life as Revan in the Republic (unless of course her identity was a secret). Which begs the question: would Carth really be able to do that? Toss everything aside and leave the Republic with her? Maybe that's a good reason for Revan asking Carth to stay behind after kotor 1, because she knows what it would do to him.
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As for love at first sight. It isn't necessarily dull. But only if the author does it right. I've never actually read a romance story, but I think I'd go for one where two characters reallly like each other at first sight but would rather take things slowly. Makes more sense and you get to see how the characters develope their love for each other...
And Pris, I now shudder in fear for my original fic after reading this. *tears*
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Oh hey, don't. This is just my opinion, and a lot of this is personal taste. Besides, the more we write the better we get. I look back at my first stuff and cringe.
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I rambled...
3. Characters need to have a life outside of the romance.
This bugs me more in fiction than it does in real life (okay maybe they're equal). Having an obsessive co-dependant relationship (which happens a lot) is sick and will not work out, period. You have to have other goals and jaunts in life. So if this is displayed in a story there should be some mention of how bad it is and it shouldn't work out - because I'm not opposed to it completely since it happens in real life, but it's ridiculous how they act like it's okay.
6. Misunderstandings that can be solved by two adults sitting down for five minutes and talking like adults, should be solved that way.
Three's Company, 'nuff said.
8. So is OMG! ONE TRU WUV!!!!111!!!!.
This probably bothers me the most, because I get jumped on whenever I try to explain this to people. Revan and Carth were put together by a situation, because of the situation they work together and came together, but that doesn't make it better or worse than anything else. Carth would not spend four years trying to get revenge if he didn't love his wife fully. And if Revan had've come about any earlier or even AS A JEDI he would not have gone after her. (I seriously doubt Carth would hit on Jedi, he seems to have a distaste for them and before he knows she's Revan he doesn't really consider her a real Jedi and then ahahah too late Onasi).
But really there are lots of other people that could match your personality and click with you enough to develop into love. One true love, especially in Star Wars with a galaxy that big, is really tragic - meaning you have a very low probabilty of finding them.
Morgana and Carth were married. That's all there is to it, they had a child and the only thing Dustil ever complains about is Carth never being around (angst little boy angst), but putting Morgana as the bad guy and how Revan is so much better for Carth. PUH-lease.
So they're saying a widower who marries again didn't really love his first wife?
10. If a hero is not a nice man, then stop writing fluffy romances about him.
I keep trying to explain this to people as well, but I get smacked down. It takes a lot of character development for either of those two nut jobs to be stable enough to develop a romance - not to mention Force bonds that are nastier and more controlling than Revan and Bastila's. I mean, jeez.
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Re: I rambled...
Exactly. It's the author's treatment of that kind of relationship that annoys the hell out of me. If is honest and shows all of the quirks and dysfunctionality of that kind of love affair, I really wouldn't have a problem with it. Or if the author had one of the characters start as a co-dependent person, and grow into a self reliant independent character, that's not a problem either. But when two characters head off into the sunset, holding hands, about to live out the happily ever after part of their story, they'd better not be co-dependant nitwits at that point, cause I'm not going to be rooting for them.
Carth would not spend four years trying to get revenge if he didn't love his wife fully. And if Revan had've come about any earlier or even AS A JEDI he would not have gone after her.
Oh agreed, about the revenge thing. I could see him maybe chasing after Revan if Morgana didn't exist, but only if he got the chance to get to know her as a person, because you make a valid point about him having a distaste for Jedi.
I keep trying to explain this to people as well, but I get smacked down. It takes a lot of character development for either of those two nut jobs to be stable enough to develop a romance - not to mention Force bonds that are nastier and more controlling than Revan and Bastila's. I mean, jeez.
ahahaha - I love how you put it. You're right, both Atton and the Exile are "nut jobs." That's too damn funny.
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Mmhm.
I've seen way too many films lately which have the romance shoehorned in, as if people will go away with loathing in their hearts if they don't see people kiss at the end.
I also hate disappearing girlfriend syndrome, but I don't think that's really relavant, so never mind ;)
I think Atton/Exile is great fodder for some really nasty dark stories. Especially if one or both of them turns to the dark side. I mean, that relationship is so sick it should be in a hospice. Same could be said for ALL the potential romances on board the Ebon Hawk mark II, to be honest, although I haven't played it through as a male yet...the thought of romancing Visas is just...*shiver*
Anyway, mostly I just wanted to say I love your writing, so I dunno where the rest of that post came from ;).
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Re: Mmhm.
Of course, I also hate the 'romantic subplot' in films. I can't stand characters who are only in the story because they're the obligatory 'love interest'.
Good point, that is very annoying. It seems like in some films an executive somewhere said: "We have to have a romance in here, to get women to go to this action, buddy film," so they just tack a romance in. In situations like that there isn't enough buildup for me to give a damn about two characters getting together, and it just bogs down the film.
I generally prefer it if two characters are introduced seperately, become friends and get to know each other, then have romance.
Yeah, I like this too. Romances that follow this kind of format tend to flow more naturally and seem less contrived by the author, probably because this is how it often happens in real life. The trick is to keep the story tension going in a relationship like that, but I think it can be done. I'd rather read a hundred of this kind of plot, than one plot that goes like: "Oh, my daddy will lose his company if I don't date you! I hate you, I love you! The end."
Actually, my major preferance is for romance between characters who are already married/together. I think that's probably just me, though
Another good way to do it, that is overlooked a lot. I think that can be sexy and entertaining as hell when done right.
I think Atton/Exile is great fodder for some really nasty dark stories. Especially if one or both of them turns to the dark side. I mean, that relationship is so sick it should be in a hospice. Same could be said for ALL the potential romances on board the Ebon Hawk mark II, to be honest, although I haven't played it through as a male yet...the thought of romancing Visas is just...*shiver*
I haven't gotten off Peragus yet with my male!Exile game, so maybe the handmaiden is cool, but I'd have to agree with this, at least in relation to Atton and Disciple who each have insanely huge issues. I really don't understand all of the Atton fangirling that's going on, as though if you met this man in real life, you'd actually let him get within a one mile radius of you. I wouldn't let Atton walk my dog, much less become romantically involved with him.
Visas is creepy (I kinda like that she is), but I'm having a hard time picturing the romance between her and the male!Exile.
I also agree that Atton/Exile is great fodder for Dark side stories, but I've only seen two or three out there. Most of them are fluffy, happy, romances, which is mind boggling. I actively avoid stories now that have Atton as a romance lead, cause most of the time it takes him completely out of character. Although, Miakun (Arrow) is planning throw Atton and Lashowe together, which I think is going to be spectacularly messed up...
The only two people I could see hooking up in K2 is Bao-Dur & Mira, and only with each other. They seem to be the most well adjusted people on that ship, although, really that's not saying a lot), which is why it is so damn annoying not having them as options (why do you torture me Obsidian, why?).
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Re: Mmhm.
"4. "My love."
Unless they were living a hundred years ago, or so... people don't call each other this. Really, they don't. Seriously, this makes me want to giggle every time a character says this."
I must disagree with this; it was used perfectly fine in KotOR where Bastila says it to a male Revan on the Star Forge, it works for the character and gives great conclusion to the scene. I've used it myself in my fic to keep the style, but I do find myself trying to abstrain from it, because I simply hate repeating myself and using the same phrase over and over and over again.
"1. Characters who would be having sex, should have sex."
Agreed, but it's a matter of timing. In my own tiny ficcie there's a time for sex and a time for not having sex. The balance is tricky but it's an issue that needs to be thought on. Personally Im not a big fan of fics where people just jump into bed together unless there's an established relationship, be it lust, love or whatever. It just seems cheap and uninteresing to me.
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Re: Mmhm.
You know, I didn't even notice it in your fic... but for some reason in others it really pops out. Maybe it's because you don't use it very often. And if Bastila is using that phrase in the game, it makes a lot of sense for it to show up in the fanfiction. However, in some fics, the characters say "my love" to each other over and over and over. But this is probably just a matter of personal taste on my part.
Agreed, but it's a matter of timing. In my own tiny ficcie there's a time for sex and a time for not having sex. The balance is tricky but it's an issue that needs to be thought on.
Oh yeah, characters that are doing the dirty deed when they really ought to be doing something more important at the time (like saving or taking over the galaxy) is almost as annoying. It drives me up the wall when two characters are having sex when there is an immediate threat against them that they really should be taking care of.
Personally Im not a big fan of fics where people just jump into bed together unless there's an established relationship, be it lust, love or whatever. It just seems cheap and uninteresing to me.
Oh I totally agree on this one. I need to be emotionally invested in the characters before I care that they are having sex. The sex doesn't have to be happy!fun!healthy!sex, but it helps if there is an established relationship that is built by the author between those two characters.
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Okay, I say "my love" in rl. I confess. Usually not every other sentence though, unless I am being sarcastic. I can see Carth saying it. Malak...totally would say it. Canderous...no.
Re: sex and the romance. I dunno...I really do have this belief that sex, while great, is not the end-all be all culminating thnigie. There's no rule that says every culture in the Star Wars galaxy has hang ups about it either. Many may not. I picture the Fleet as kinda like Starship Troopers, or Peacekeepers in Farscape. People have sex. It passes the time. I suspect half the Padawans in the Jedi Temple were making out in the bushes in the Meditation Garden...they just didn't talk about it, because it was against the rules. Much like boarding school or summer camp.
Any fiction that makes a big deal of it one way or the other, bugs me, although I admit being more bugged by the not getting around to it than the shagging all the time. (As long as I don't have to read about the shagging...all...the time. In moderation okay.)
You know, a bad cheating Morgana could be good. I thought about having them have an imperfect marriage, only to create a Morgana that would be in contrast to Pris's, who's pretty much canon. Decided against it though because I didn't want to suggest that moral fabrication that Revan is better than Morgana was. Because whatever Morgana did, obviously she didn't sack worlds.
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Point taken. Between you and Deej, I'm going to have to amend the "my love" rule to characters don't get to call each other "my love" every five seconds... You damn people... challanging my assumptions...sheesh! LOL :P
Re: sex and the romance. I dunno...I really do have this belief that sex, while great, is not the end-all be all culminating thnigie. There's no rule that says every culture in the Star Wars galaxy has hang ups about it either. Many may not. I picture the Fleet as kinda like Starship Troopers, or Peacekeepers in Farscape. People have sex. It passes the time. I suspect half the Padawans in the Jedi Temple were making out in the bushes in the Meditation Garden...they just didn't talk about it, because it was against the rules. Much like boarding school or summer camp.
Okay, now you need to write that, because I find the idea of the padawans making out in the meditation gardens so damn amusing, that someone needs to write it.
And I agree, sex doesn't have to be the culmination of two people's love for one another in a romance, or that every time they have sex, it should become the focal point of the story. Focusing too much on sex irritates me as well *cough*Laurell Hamilton*cough.* I've actually read romance novels where there is so much shagging going on that I get bored and start to skip past those parts.
I kind of figure it's going on between two lovers unless the author tells me otherwise. And if the author is telling me otherwise, when the two people are consenting adults with no real reason not to be doing the dirty, there better be a damn good reason.
You know, a bad cheating Morgana could be good. I thought about having them have an imperfect marriage, only to create a Morgana that would be in contrast to Pris's, who's pretty much canon. Decided against it though because I didn't want to suggest that moral fabrication that Revan is better than Morgana was. Because whatever Morgana did, obviously she didn't sack worlds.
I could see Morgana cheating on Carth, or a less than happy, rather bitchy version of her. I doubt that their marriage was perfect. Hell I know their marriage wasn't perfect, because nobody’s marriage is perfect. It's just that if people are going to try to attempt doing that, they need to be really careful not to pull the whole "Morgana was such a bitch, omg Revan is Carth's one true love" bit, and that would be really hard for most authors to do.
However, I think you could get away with doing the bitchy version of Morgana in your fic, because your version of Revan is hardly saintly herself, so I don't think that it would come across as Morgana wasn't worthy of Carth, but Revan is. Besides, you have a real knack for taking ideas that I would never try to make work, and making them work fantastically well, so I'm sure that it would come off the way you intend.
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There is actually that one line in the game that Dustil says on Korriban...I think? Something about 'mother not waiting for you' -- that does suggest a certain crack in the veneer, maybe. But it's kind of like, how much sadness does poor Carth really need? (Okay, I am the wrong person to ask that.)
Go read that fiction I just linked ya. Wow, speaking of Telos...